Life With Tim Lyons
From Northern Soul To Krautpunk via an invisible rabbit!
With Manchester/Salford band The Sandells moving to Half Edge Records I took the opportunity to sit down with band front man, who already features on the label in The Harveys and Pre-Cogs, vocalist and bass player Tim Lyons to talk about his life in the music industry and many bands, the history of The Sandells, and what we can expect from the band in the future.
Bob : So how did you start off in the music business?
Tim : My first experience was as a soul DJ at St Boniface's Youth Club in Lower Broughton in Salford around 1971/2. I had started going to gigs in the early 1970’s - The Faces, Cockney Rebel, The Sweet and others.
Bob : I was at that first Cockney Rebel gig at Manchester University Union. I remember coming away from that one somewhat unimpressed.
Tim : As for buying music I remember I bought a record in Rare Records on John Dalton Street in Manchester City Centre, that was in 1973. It was Future Days by Can, I'm not sure if Ian Curtis worked there at that time, but it's quite possible
Bob : He would have been 17 at the time so I guess it’s a possibility. I used to love that shop, I bought my first ECM album there, Ralph Towner.
Tim : I did see Ian working there many times. Anyway, at the time signed European bands were being promoted and playing the University circuit, so in March 1974 I went to see Can play, that's when I realised I wanted to be an artist. During 1974/75 I saw many bands but I was always more excited by the Krautrock ones - Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk etc. I started to also like American bands like Stooges, MC5, and the New York Dolls. I used to look in all the record shops from the early 70s onwards, because being a northern soul DJ I was on the hunt for rare ones. There was a soul music shop on John Dalton Street too, so I was used to looking everywhere in Manchester for music, I got some really good ones over the years. Thinking back I also saw Ian Curtis once leafing through records in the basement of Boots The Chemist on Market St, when they used to sell records.
Bob : I remember when that closed down, they had a huge sale and were selling off vinyl ridiculously cheap, I got another Ralph Towner ECM, the one with John Abercrombie - Sargasso Sea. Anyway, you got involved in a fanzine around then?
Tim : Yes, I met some new friends, one of them ran a fanzine called 'Penetration'. I think it was probably the first one in Manchester. I contributed to it and went to gigs and had very informal interviews with people like Lemmy Kilminster. The editor of Penetration was Paul Welsh, he took the original photos at the Sex Pistols gig at the Lesser Free Trade Hall, he was ahead of his time!
Bob : Punk was happening?
Tim : Indeed. In late ‘75 or early ‘76 went to see Patti Smith at the Roundhouse in London, with the Stranglers supporting. Although that wasn't the first Punk band I saw, that was in early ‘75 at UMIST when I went to see 'Ash Ra Tempel' the support was Doctor Feelgood, probably the first “Punk” band I saw. I also saw the first Ramones gig at the Roundhouse in London, that was the show where it was suggested that all the punk bands formed afterwards, such as Clash, Damned Pistols etc. Top of the bill was Flaming Groovies, middle band was The Ramones and the first band was The Stranglers, all three bands were great but The Ramones stole the show.
Bob : And then enter Jon The Postman?
Tim : Yes, around this time I met Jon, we hit it off because of our love of music and went to simply countless gigs together which ended up with us mounting a stage at a Buzzcocks gig at the Electric Circus and me pretending to be Rashid Ali on drums, which I had never played before! This performance eventually resulted in me recording Jon’s 1st album “Puerile” which was released in 1978. We did a few gigs, including one at Pips supporting Warsaw, who eventually became Joy Division.
Bob : The first band you started came next?
Tim : Yes, by 1979 I had put a band together. They were called The Things. The first line-up sounded like The Velvet Underground in the White Light, White Heat era and also kind of early Jesus and Mary Chain. In hindsight that was probably the best version of The Things. We played only 3 gigs with that line-up - Saint John's College, The Band on the Wall with Una Baines on keys, and the other at The Factory in Hulme. At the time Mark E. Smith said on 2 occasions that The Things were ahead of their time! Then the band changed line-up and ended up with John Maher from Buzzcocks playing drums. We did a short tour of England and Scotland in 1980 with Buzzcocks. John firstly asked me if we would record a single on his new label, I told him our drummer was not really up to it and if he would play we would do it. He originally wanted a female band in the style of the Shangri-la's I think he had in mind just me with the rest of the band being women - food for thought hey!
Bob : So this was the line-up that released “Pieces of You” in 1980 on Imperial with Joe Brehony on bass, Dave Holmes on guitar, Ella Metcalfe on keyboards and John on drums?
Tim : Yes. Interestingly John had heard our live version of Walking in the Sand, which we eventually recorded with him when the Things reformed in the mid 2000’s. John tried to get us signed to Virgin in 1980. They had just started Dindisc as a subsidiary. The distribution deal they offered him was not enough, so he refused and they signed Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark instead of the Things! These little mistakes have plagued me for years! Usually it's others, not me, that make them. We did a session for Mark Radcliffe for his then Piccadilly radio show, which was called Transmission, and he described us as Manchester's strongest band. We carried on with gigs for a year or so, which included support for New Order in 1981 and then split.
Bob : Yes but they would be back! What came next?
Tim : Myself and a friend, Andrew Wright, went to live in the Crescents in Hulme. We formed a duo ‘Red turns to' which ended up recording a three track single released by Factory records in 1985, produced by Steven Morris. Probably the worst thing I have ever done! Andrew was totally obsessed with New Order and we recorded it at Strawberry Studios with Chris Nagle engineering using all new order brand new gear which included an emulator and the famous Blue Monday drum machine! The band was supposed to be influenced by Krautrock, not bloody New Order. We got two more musicians in and played several gigs sounding more like Neu meets Can. Fortunately the record was lost amongst others being pushed by Factory, thank God! They only promoted mostly Happy Mondays, and ignored all the other bands that were recorded around that time….typically. 'Red turns to ' played a number of gigs including International 1 and then split.
Bob: And next up Harvey’s Rabbit?
Tim : I joined them in 1992 ish, I knew a great guitar player Dave Thom who had worked a bit with me and he joined. We recorded some demos including a version “Is this what you call change?”
Bob : From Robert Forster’s “Danger In The Past” album?
Tim : Yes, it was one of the tracks and we sent it to every record label we could think of, to no avail. But then Riley and Radcliffe used it for their 'in the city' protest and proceeded to play it on I think every BBC show, pity it was a cover! The rest of the line up was Mick Pullan on guitar, Dave on guitar and keyboards, David Chorlton on bass and Andy Bell on drums
Bob : I recall Mick saying in an interview that he thought you had written it?
Tim : Yes, I came clean at the John Peel Session! The reason I said I'd written the Forster song was because if Mick would have known, he wouldn't have agreed to have a cover as a first release! However I had a strong feeling it was the one one that would get noticed, which consequently was true, so I felt the lie was justified
Bob : Up until then very much a self promotional effort?
Tim : We were never really part of a scene but had a few ideas and a good DIY work ethic. 1994 was a busy year. Tired of the process of recording demos, sending them off and being rejected, we decided to be a bit more ambitious and record an album "A Place For Beginners" at Studio Studio near Rochdale. We released it in Cassette only on our own Rain Soaked label. Releasing it meant getting a few copies on the shelves of Piccadilly Records, selling some at gigs and giving a load away. Around the same time we managed to get some dates supporting The Fall - two at the Roadhouse in Manchester, followed by Penzance, Exeter, Basingstoke and Oldham Queen Elizabeth Hall. And a memorable week spent commuting to Liverpool to play at the Lomax Club. One thing led to another and no doubt it was this connection which led to us coming to John Peel's attention and us getting a session.
Bob : This sparked a bit more interest?
Tim : Yes later in 1994 we signed to a new Oxford based label "Rotator". I've no doubt that the Peel Session played a big part in persuading Richard Cotton from the label to take a chance with us, he came up to see us playing in Manchester. Cotton did a lot of good things for us which culminated in two gigs in Camden and an interview in NME and a double single of the week with The Wannadies “You And Me” song. Three record labels wanted to sign us including Polydor, but he turned them down! Again I was not happy! Then he signed the Candyskins from Oxford and I think put all his attention into them. In 1995 we released the 7" vinyl single "Is This What You Call Change" with "Room At The Top" on the B side. It got great reviews and radio airplay particularly from Mark Radcliffe, Steve Lamacq and Jo Whiley. Peelie also played it but to be honest we never got the impression he was that into us. The Peel session was a great thrill, but an even greater one was finding out that we had reached number 42 in Peel's Festive 50 of 1995. Now that really did feel like making it. By then Cotton was up to his neck in Candyskins. This is what I mean by people making silly mistakes! Candyskins flopped and the Harveys were left with nothing!
Bob : There is a fairly good recorded legacy though - after the first single you had further singles Window Dresser, Happy Town and Love is the Law and 1998 the album The New Spiritual Vacuum?
Tim : Yes but it didn’t last. We played our last gig at the Night and Day Cafe on Oldham Street, Manchester in the Autumn of 1998. In Autumn 2009 Harvey Rabbit played live together for the first time in 10 years in honour of Dave Thom's birthday.
Bob : It must have been around that time that The Sandells came into Salford City Radio to do a session with me, and Dave Thom was on keyboards. With a single coming on October 23rd it’s time to put our focus on that band. But before we discuss that you had a career in jazz?
Tim : Well I'd bought a rather good trumpet in about 2000 and I'd always liked freeform stuff and I used to see stuff at the Band on the Wall in 80’s and 90’s such as Keith Tippett abd Evan Parker. Also there was a collective called ' those who celebrate' doing free form stuff at different venues and for a while they had a residency upstairs at the Millstone in the Northern Quarter. They got arts council grants to put star free form guest artists on , I saw an amazing gig at the Millstone with Peter Brotzmann, he had a five piece with all players using different types of saxophones. I was inspired by German music again! I asked drummer and bass player from Harvey’s Rabbit if they were interested in getting an improv free form outfit together and ' Withoutlaw' was formed. I'd met a sax player called Dave Jackson and a multi instrument player called John Sheldon. We also had a guitar player, at one point we had two drummers. We did a few gigs, one at Gullivers upstairs well before it was a venue. We recorded a live album at Torvale Mill in New Mills. At that time also met the Warrington improv collective which was run by 2 guys Harry Gallimore and Dave, can't remember his surname. Anyway again with arts grants they put people on at the Pyramid arts centre which is attached, literally, to the Parr Hall in Warrington. I did quite a few gigs with them at that venue we used to put the main act on then do a set with them..I once jammed with Evan Parker!! We played Liverpool blue coat gallery once, I thought that was rather posh. Harry and Dave still do stuff, I think, called Fonik. When I was with them they were called “Psychiatric Challenge” I wonder why!
Bob : OK back to The Sandells…..what’s the story?
Tim : In 2002 I formed an early version of Sandells with a drum machine, a Minikorg and Andy Wright from Red turns to. He left and I linked up with Brian Benson. Brian and I played for a couple of years as a duo. The trio side of things kicked off properly in 2006. We tried loads of guitarists but not many of them could cope with Brian's, shall we say eccentric style! Add my guitar style minimalistic bass playing, and we are a bit of a challenge. We tried Martin Bramah, but it didn't work. Two guitarists that we did have were fantastic! But one after the other they both left us for women. There are still a few recordings with the brilliant Pranham, an Indian player and Phil who went to another town to get married. I coined the tag "krautpunk" to assert the two main sensibilities that informs the bands music...that of the spirit and sound of 70s German bands such as Can and Neu!...and the attitude of Punk. During the period 2006-2009 The Sandells built a solid reputation on the basis of a number of well-received gigs, including a stint as backing band for ex- Can vocalist Damo Suzuki. For a brief spell we comprised an early incarnation of Martin Bramah's latest group "Factory Star." We settled on the current line up with Brian on drums/percussion, and Johann Kloos on guitar, who joined in July 2009. We did that session with you, played loads of gigs, and released the album “Forwards” a couple of years back on Red Rec Records. The last few years have been taken up with reforming Harvey’s Rabbit as The Harveys.
Bob: Which is where we got back together via German Shepherd and now Half Edge Records. It’s just struck me that your career has had a lot of interaction with The Fall and its various members.
Tim : After the Things had been formed in 1979, Mark and Martin came to see us but I don't think the Things did a gig with them until 1980, I remember we did a gig at Fagins supporting the Fall in 81, can't remember others during 1980’s. In the 1990s Harveys Rabbit did quite a few with them, and when Jon the Postman was managing them, and it was managing! Craig Scanlon and Steve Hanley told me that he was doing a great job at the time. Of course Mark never said he had a manager, but obviously he did starting with Kay Carrol and Alan Wise etc, I had an idea at the time myself , Mick and Dave from Harveys were promoting at the Roadhouse, actually I think we were the first promoters there. mainly because we used to do a lot of gigs at the Castle and John McBeath was the landlord and we suggested he open a venue somewhere hence the Roadhouse. So anyway I suggested to Mark and Jon that the Fall should play the Roadhouse maybe do two nights, so Mark liked the idea and they ended up doing four nights. Harveys Rabbit supported for 2 nights, it was a big success, and changed the image of the venue
Bob : Yes, that would have been sixth to the ninth December 1993 - one of those nights was broadcast as part of BBCs Sound In The City
Tim : As I said earlier we did more supports for The Fall at Liverpool Lomax and then a short English tour . I remember a great gig in Bristol. It was around this period that Harveys did the John Peel session and also a Johnny Walker session.
Bob : You know I think it may have been Julia Adamson that made that Salford City Radio session happen - another Fall link. We spent so long trying to record Cowboys Don’t Have Brollies that we ran out of time to do a proper interview. I got told off by the Station Manager for bringing a live band into the studio! You were generous enough to let me have some live recordings that we put out on that SCR Freebies thing on Bandcamp.
Tim : I’d forgotten all about that.
Bob : Recorded from a video camera so it is not studio quality sound but it captures The Sandells at their best. So we got back together in 2019 on German Shepherd Records for some releases with The Harveys, not Harveys Rabbit.
Tim : The name change was pretty much my idea. I'd never really liked Harveys Rabbit much because it sounded a bit confusing, I did like the story from the movie (Harvey with James Stewart) about the 6 foot tall invisible rabbit as a sort of metaphor for just being oneself, but unless you were familiar with the film it just sounded a bit daft! So I thought let's just abbreviate it. However there are several bands called the Harveys but no one called Harveys Rabbit! I don't know you can't win!
Bob : I had completely forgotten that around 2012 you got The Things back together,
Tim : The Things decided to reform then and made some live appearances in 2013 with Brian Benson replacing John Maher on drums. With several gigs under our belt we returned to the studio in 2014 to record “the album we should have made in 1980″. The studio session saw the return of John Maher on drums, recreating the line up that recorded the Imperial Records single back in 1980. Brian Benson also played on some tracks and continued to play live dates with the band.
Bob : The first EP from the sessions made its’ way to me via Joe Brehony. If I recall the music biz was in the throes of a psych pop revival and the timing couldn’t have been better. It was clear from the opening bass riff of “Nobody Wonders” that you made most of that extant scenes garage/psych wannabees seem like rank outsiders. There was a legitimacy and energy bursting out of the EP that puts that band up there with the greats. I never had the opportunity to see the band live when you first emerged but I get a sense that the youthful enthusiasm that drove those early performances had been captured and flowed from those new recordings. The dreamy pop of “1000 Stars” has a glorious epic feel with Ella Burton’s keyboards holding the centre ground as you preached the garage rock sermon through a wall of sound.
Bob : More up to date, We’ve been relatively busy since 2019 with seven Harveys releases. Lots of gigs and videos probably your most productive period.
Bob : The most recent thing we’ve done with you prior to The Sandells is your new project with Dave Thom called Precogs
Tim : In July 2010 we began formulating what eventually became ‘Precogs’ named after an idea in one of Philip K Dicks novels ‘people who see things differently, people who see things before they happen! We hope to do more in the future.
Bob : You finally put out The Sandells album on Red Rec Records in 2017 - extensive liner notes from Mick Middles and Ged Babey and a lot of the material which had formed the core of your set list. It includes the new single and we’ve agreed to release it on Half Edge Records as a sort of relaunch, with an associated gig at The Peer Hat on October 23rd, the same day as the single comes out. Tell me the inspiration behind Cowboys Don’t Have Brollies.
Tim : It’s a famous line from Joe Meek around the time he was recording Telstar with The Tornadoes. I'd always admired Joe’s stuff, course he was the first, to my knowledge , independent record producer, so when I saw a play called Telstar, story of Joe Meek, was on at the Opera House in Manchester I went to see it - 2005 , and although I'd heard about his life sexuality and subsequent suicide, I found the play fascinating, fantastic cast wonderful production, btw it's the same actor - Con O’Neil - who played Meek in the play that was in the film which came out in 2007. It's a great story of a true maverick who was tone deaf and recorded all his hits on a shoestring above his landlady's suitcase and leather goods shop in London, he lived above the shop. So I wanted to do something as a kind of homage to him, it's played in the same style as all his productions, he used the same backing band ,' The Outlaws' for all his hits but with different names and singers that's why they all sound so similar. Some of the Outlaws became famous like Richie Blackmore, Mitch Mitchell, and Chas of Chas and Dave fame.
Bob : Yes, the drummer, Bobby Graham, went on to play on hundreds of famous records and was just pipped at the post for the job in The Beatles by Ringo.
Tim : Meek’s thing was repetition which resonates with The Fall. “Cowboys” is also very repetitive but the lyrics are quite existential.
Bob : The way ahead is more gigs and also new material and recordings from The Sandells. What can we expect?
Tim : New material was written a while ago. There are songs about German cyclists, vampires, another homage, this time to Vivian Stanshall, and an absolute stormer of a motorik beat driven tune called 'Heart of Stones' plus a couple of instrumentals.
Bob : Looking forward to those - thanks Tim!
Thanks to : Tim Lyons, Johann Kloos, Brian Benson, Mick Pullan, Joe Brehony , and Paul Forshaw for providing material for this article.